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 Post subject: Rider Key
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:46 pm 
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How can I disable the key from notifying players that they have a rider? Please don't tell me it is a temp1 variable. :oops:


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:38 pm 
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The key is hard coded in the file observer.qc, the function obs_post_think().

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:20 pm 
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Thanks... I'll try using the observer.qc file from RQP and see if what happens. :twisted: It is disabled in that mod.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 10:56 pm 
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Diazoild forgot to ask how to make it so E1M7 is the only map in the rotation :o


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:11 am 
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I know how to do that... :lol:


What about this rider key though... I believe there is an advantage to allowing people to ride players without them being notified (of course admins can do this without changes to the code). If someone believes a player is cheating they can ride the player and make a demo. If someone is using a bot, the rider key alerts them and gives them a chance to turn it off and not get caught.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:35 am 
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I think the rider notification adds a unique element to the game. It certainly isn't something that you see anywhere else. Why let a few bad apples spoil it for the bunch.

I understand what you're saying though too, Diazoild. Maybe I should make it easier for server-ops to disable it by adding an option in the settings file.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:58 am 
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If I get it to work using the other observer.qc, I'll send you the file. I planned to mess with it this weekend.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:58 pm 
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If you really wanted to, you could simply comment out the following code:

Code:
if ((self.runetime > 0 && time > self.runetime) || self.runetime == -2)
{
      if (deathmatch & DM_DM_MASK)
      {
            // Don't key admin observers (only admin obs can ride obs).
            if (!is_observer_e (self.owner))
                  self.owner.items = self.owner.items | IT_KEY2;
      }

      self_sprint (self.owner, "Rider ");
      self_sprint (self.owner, self.netname);
      self_sprint (self.owner, " acquired\n");
      if (self.runetime != -2)
      {
             sprint (self, "Notified ");
             sprint (self, self.owner.netname);
             sprint (self, " of new rider\n");
      }
      self.runetime = -1;
}

Or would it cause some bugs Slot?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:21 am 
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Slot Zero wrote:
...I think the rider notification adds a unique element to the game. It certainly isn't something that you see anywhere else. Why let a few bad apples spoil it for the bunch...


I still don't see how knowing you have a rider provides any more or less fun. The only people that I can think of that benefit from the key are cheaters.


Bam wrote:
If you really wanted to, you could simply comment out the following code:



I have the code to do it. I just got lazy and have not done it yet.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:03 pm 
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Diazoild wrote:
I still don't see how knowing you have a rider provides any more or less fun.


The unique element is how people react to someone watching them. It gets some people mad or nervous and makes them do poorly, while other people come alive because they know they are being watched and want to perform their best. Imagine that, a small indication that someone is riding can inspire such emotion! Sure, I know, most people probably couldn't care less, but if that's the case it won't matter to them either way.

Diazoild wrote:
The only people that I can think of that benefit from the key are cheaters.


I look at it just the opposite. If they know they have a rider and stop cheating, the entire server benefits. It's almost like giving a riding player admin powers.

Besides, you make it sound as though riding is the only way to identify a cheater. Most of the time I use free-look observer because I can see outside the players FOV and spot his reactions to hidden or newly spotted people.

Even if you take away the key, toggle cheaters can still be crafty by checking to see if there are any observers present before cheating.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:16 pm 
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Bam wrote:
Or would it cause some bugs Slot?


That looks as though it would do it. But to completely remove all notification (and not just the key) requires the removal of the show-riders command, info in show-players, and info in disp-info.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:44 pm 
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Diazoild wrote:
I still don't see how knowing you have a rider provides any more or less fun. The only people that I can think of that benefit from the key are cheaters.


It was nice being able to ride players without their knowledge at Widomaker back when it was busy without having to be in admin mode.

But, it's also nice having a rider key. It's nice finding out you have some one interested enough to ride you. I tend to ride D'Rouen or Tia if I'm not playing and Crazicracker rides people a lot and jokes around when he isn't playing.

I tend to feel like I need to play a stronger game when I see the gold key to make watching me play seem worthwhile. And, honestly, I enjoy playing more when I think someone is watching.

It is easy to make a strong argument for or against the rider key.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:10 pm 
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I think the key does add a little to the game. It's always interesting if you have a rider, as Slot said, it effects how a person might play, even think.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:36 pm 
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Slot Zero wrote:
...Besides, you make it sound as though riding is the only way to identify a cheater. Most of the time I use free-look observer because I can see outside the players FOV and spot his reactions to hidden or newly spotted people.


As an admin, I can of course ride people without the key being activated and do have other means that assist with identifying cheaters. However, other players have made remarks about players' styles changing when they ride and attempt to make demos.

We just have different opinions here. I see more upside to eliminating the key and thought I would attempt to persuade others it was a good idea.

I rest my case. :(


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 2:53 pm 
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I'm more in Diazoild's camp here. Sure, a cheater will be less inclined to cheat if he knows someone is riding him, but if he can never be sure when he's being observed, he'll be less likely to cheat at any given time due to the greater risk of getting caught.

It's also more likely that an oblivious player will get demoed cheating w/out the rider key.

Slot Zero wrote:
If they know they have a rider and stop cheating, the entire server benefits.


The server benefits only for the short term. I'd rather have the cheater caught and appropriate action taken than him return to cheat again.

Quote:
Most of the time I use free-look observer because I can see outside the players FOV and spot his reactions to hidden or newly spotted people.


I maybe wrong, but I would imagine that the sound in free-look does not accurately represent what a player hears.


Collusion is more difficult with the rider key in team games, but it serves little purpose in FFA. If you play better being observed, train your dog to stare at you by placing a tempting dog biscuit on your lap.

I think the best solution would be to have the level of the rider's stealth be easily configured by the admin.

toyo


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:38 pm 
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toyo_mr2 wrote:
Sure, a cheater will be less inclined to cheat if he knows someone is riding him, but if he can never be sure when he's being observed, he'll be less likely to cheat at any given time due to the greater risk of getting caught.


All he needs to do is use the show-players command and he can tell who is playing and who is observing.

toyo_mr2 wrote:
The server benefits only for the short term.


Players are encouraged to report bots immediately so that all of us (as admins) can do our jobs and deal with them.

toyo_mr2 wrote:
I'd rather have the cheater caught and appropriate action taken than him return to cheat again.


If there are no admins around or people don't report it, there is no chance of that happening. At least the rider key might bring some immediate relief to the server, and anyone can use it.

toyo_mr2 wrote:
I think the best solution would be to have the level of the rider's stealth be easily configured by the admin.


I already have an idea that should make everyone happy, but I have far more important issues that I want to tackle than this one. Your complaints, while well received, do not motivate me one bit, especially coming from two people who already have the ability to hide their key.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:30 pm 
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Slot Zero wrote:
All he needs to do is use the show-players command and he can tell who is playing and who is observing.


I wrote that if a player can never be sure when he's being observed, he'll be less likely to cheat at any given time. The rider key is one component. Personally, I like the show-players command, but the highest rider's stealth level can have that feature disabled.

It will eventually become burdensome for cheaters to constantly inquire on the status of other players before or during bot use. He'll either get careless and get caught or stop botting in the fear of getting caught.

Quote:
Players are encouraged to report bots immediately so that all of us (as admins) can do our jobs and deal with them.


A bot report alone by an average Joe is highly suspect. That's where a demo would be welcomed. Unfortunately, as soon as a cheater realizes he's being observed and possibly recorded, he's likely to stop botting.

Quote:
At least the rider key might bring some immediate relief to the server, and anyone can use it.


The same reach and effect is available via the talk feature. A cheater who is concerned about the status of the rider key will surely take the same precautions if warned by a fellow player that he is being observed/recorded.

toyo


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:34 pm 
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It would be a convenience feature for Diazoild or others to easily be able to turn it off the rider system. It does help with the average Joe recording.

But there are also a lot less cheaters than some of the average Joe's think. A lot less. And most of the botters are so obvious and don't turn it off when asked. And most of the refined cheaters can never be conclusively caught because the way they are cheating isn't a clear cut advantage either.

JoeQuake and other graphical engines have blurred the fairness line. In JoeQuake with all the effects turned on, you have awareness of some things other clients don't, like seeing shadows of players above you, the rockets are easier to see and therefore dodge and the hook looks like a purple laser beam. But, it's beautiful and looks cool even though the lighting is different, etc. and not quite fair (although I don't use JoeQuake often when I'm playing to win because I get distracted by how nice everything looks).

JoeQuake: http://joequake.quake1.net

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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 2:44 am 
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I like the rider key. Its fun. If I know someones riding, I can put on a better show, and make jokes and what not in mm2. As Baker said, it's funny how excited people seem to get about cheaters. If it's really a concern, just nominate a few players who have the option to ride without notification. And if we are gonna be paranoid of cheating, without notifiy someone could connect with a second computer and obs a player while playing on their main computer. OMG!! ;)

As for joequake, I don't think it's an advantage. I've been using it exclusively the past week or so, and I think it's actually a little tougher to follow what's going on with all the fancy sprites turned on. I do occasionally get tipped off by a shadow, but thats a pretty minor advantage. Playing in the barren brown box of proquake makes stuff easier to follow, but it also makes me wanna gouge my eyes out after a while. I'm really enjoying my proquake setup with fancy new textures, models, charset, skybox, menu and hud graphics, and lit files.


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 3:03 am 
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Slot Zero wrote:
I already have an idea that should make everyone happy, but I have far more important issues that I want to tackle than this one. Your complaints, while well received, do not motivate me one bit, especially coming from two people who already have the ability to hide their key.



As I mentioned above, elimitating the key isn't intented to aid admins, it would help regular players record demos without being detected. I get complaints from people that swear player X has a much more accurate aim when an admin isn't present or when they have a rider.

A certain part of me is a tad suspicous of anyone that is overly invested in knowing when they have a rider.


Slot Zero wrote:
All he needs to do is use the show-players command and he can tell who is playing and who is observing.


It would seem logical to eliminate this functionality in tandem with the ride-key.


Last edited by Diazoild on Mon May 02, 2005 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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