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 Post subject: To everyone interested in stopping cheaters
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:31 pm 
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A MESSAGE TO ALL THOSE INTERESTED IN STOPPING CHEATERS

We all know there have always been bot-callers out there, and there probably always will be. Usually the best thing that an innocent, skilled player can do when accused of cheating is to ignore it or laugh it off. However, what I have seen lately is that the accused keep quiet while the bot-callers are so vocal that the newbies listen to the only voice they hear -- the stupid one.

There have always been newbies, and hopefully there always will be. Life takes some people away from Quake, and only new blood will ensure that this game stays around. But when an entire generation of newbies becomes polluted with nonsense about how all the skilled players are supposedly cheating, I think there is reason to take note. I believe that the reason this game has been around so long is because there have always been newbies, as well as skilled players. Take out one or the other, and I think the game would become a ghost town.

There some things going on related to cheating accusations that are pretty disturbing. One is that the bot accusers refuse to pay attention to reason, but by the amount of energy they put into it (Bellybutton/IHH and Surfer Girl to name a couple) you have to think that they really honestly have convinced themselves, and are on a crusade to convince everyone else. They try to convince others that cheating is ignored by the admin, that all the great players cheat, and that they should leave the game if an alleged cheater is playing, even if the allegations are nothing more than their blathering words.

The results of this are potentially devastating to new players. Recently I have heard much discussion in the game from various newbie players about how they are actively seeking out cheats to use. How sad. On one hand you might think if they are that gullible to believe the idiot ranters, and they actually do succeed in using a cheat, that they are better off banned. But on the other, I really hate to see people get banned. I would rather they learned the truth than learn things the hard way, and reduce our numbers in the process.

Myth #1: All the good players cheat. Players with great aim or who are difficult to kill are cheating.
Hogwash. This game has been around for over 10 years, and a lot of the best players around now have been playing online ever since the Quake shareware days. If you want to see an example of someone who has the best aim ever, try finding demos of Gohan at his best. The guy doesn't miss. He also doesn't cheat. I have seen Gohan play at cheatfree servers and seen no variance in playing style. If I ever beat Gohan at his best, it was definitely an accomplishment. But the bottom line is, experience, reflexes, and general gaming skills will help people win. You might not know the secrets and tricks, but they don't involve cheating. There has been a lot of discussion on this matter and I don't want this to turn into a playing guide. But if you don't understand how you are getting beaten so badly, then perhaps you should stop whining about cheating and start paying attention to the guys who are winning! Ride them, watch how they play. Most of the good players will be glad to share tips with you. Ask nicely, be friendly, and you will learn. There is also an assload of information and tips here: http://www.quakeone.com/index.php?ind=guides

Myth #2: The admins let people cheat.
Nonsense. Slot can affirm that there have been several occasions in the last year or two where I have sent him demos of a suspected cheater, and he will either confirm and ban the player, or tell me he disagrees, or tell me that the evidence is inconclusive. The fact of the matter is, cheaters really will get banned if you collect evidence in the right way. How do you collect evidence in the right way? Well, read on...

Myth #3: You can't see cheating in demos.
This is the biggest load of bullshit I have heard in a long time, and this lie was introduced by IHH/Bellybutton and is now being perpetuated by all of those ignorant enough to believe it. If you can see someone cheating in the game, you can demo it. Why? Because demos contain everything you can see in the game, everything you can hear, everything. If you can detect it in the game, then you can also detect it in a demo. The converse is true. If you can't detect it in a demo, then there is also no way to detect it in the game, and if you claim otherwise then you are either ignorant or you are a lying shit who just wants to bot-call for the sake of annoying. Demos don't lie, and they are proof.

Myth #4: If I think someone is cheating, the first thing I should do is tell everyone on the server.
Very bad move. If you REALLY think someone is cheating, running your mouth about it will only tip a cheater off to hide it, and then you won't get the evidence you need to get the cheater busted. What you SHOULD do is keep QUIET about it... but demo the person. It works much better if you also don't let them know you are recording.

TIP: Use the Rider-Hide command before riding someone!
At the Shmack server, when you go into observer mode, type RIDER-HIDE in the console. Then, when you ride someone, they won't see the Gold rider key in the display. Often this way, you can ride them without them noticing. It works EVEN BETTER if you go into observer mode by staying idle after you die. That way, the suspected cheater will probably think that you've just gone away for awhile. If you go into obs mode right after getting fragged, that will tip off a cheater that you are watching.

Myth #5: Richmark isn't a cheat.
So wrong. Richmark is about cheating. Don't use it, or you will get caught. If you want to find out what it means to be banned, well, that's just sad.

IN CONCLUSION...
Just don't cheat. And if you think someone is cheating, do the right thing as a member of this community and help catch them. That means keeping quiet, making a demo, and sending it to the admin (Slot Zero).

ABOUT MAKING DEMOS...
For more info, visit http://www.quakeone.com/index.php?ind=guides&op=show&id=2. And remember, all demos need to have the STATUS command in them, so Slot will know who is being demoed and if necessary who needs to be banned.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:50 pm 
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Good post although I'd like to add to the discussion of demos.

A demo can only show so much in that it does not reveal the cheater's environment, only his behavior. For example, he may have a cheat that allows him to see crosses that reveal the location of players around him, even behind walls. If you demo him, you will not be able to see this cheat directly unless you have it installed as well.

However, you can indirectly detect the cheat by his behavior. If he has an overtly keen sense of the whereabouts of his opponents, you can begin to suspect something.

The best defense against cheaters is to demo them. Send the demos to Slot and, if for whatever reason you suspect the admins are indifferent to cheaters, publicly post them for the Quake community to dissect.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:02 pm 
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Hi Toyo, thanks for your comments.

You're right that a demo shows only so much. However, the accusations I am describing come from people who are basing their allegations solely on what they see in the game as players or observers. And if you record a demo as a player or observer, then that DOES indeed show everything that could be seen from your standpoint in the game. So if they can supposedly detect cheating by watching, then they can also demo it.

The truth is, 99.999% of these bot/hack/pak/cheat-callers "detections" and allegations are entirely false. Claiming that what they see can't be demoed is just a cop-out for having to assemble real evidence against an alleged cheater.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:16 am 
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I only worry or care about cheats that would make enough of a difference as to matter in a game.

If you can't tell if someone is cheating in a demo, then either they aren't cheating or whatever way they are cheating isn't much of an advantage.

The EFF command combined with watching a player is very helpful. It displays an accuracy reading.

Most cheaters need/want a cheat to be a major help, and that's going to be a bot and for those players to see ANY difference in the game, the bot is going to have to be doing ALL the shooting for them.

And when they do that, the lightgun EFF will be high and the shotgun EFF will be very high. This is a good helper and then if you ride them, you will see soon enough a tell-tale situation that will be absolute confirmation.

The small handful of mostly noobies that decide to get a cheat aren't going for something subtle that will give them 2 or 3 frags, they want a bot.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:41 am 
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Could you guys list what to look for in a demo if someone is cheating?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:08 pm 
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If someone knows where a player is before they even see them is one sign (like around corners, camping up on a wall with grappling hook, hiding using camoflague rune, etc.) but it's not always an exact tell of a cheat. For instance, catgirl recently decided to brand me a cheat because I shot her while she had camoflague rune on and hiding near a portal. The only problem for her is that since she camps the same locations every single time she plays, it's obvious where she is. lol

If a player's efficiency is extremely high on a consistant basis that could also hint at cheaters but again not 100% proof of it.

You can't throw out accusations of cheating solely on player movements and "firing at players around corners" though. Oftentimes sounds give away player locations. If a player picks up a health box or ammo box around a corner, you'll hear it and know someone's coming.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:32 am 
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Fuzznut wrote:
Could you guys list what to look for in a demo if someone is cheating?


Here is a non-bot experienced player:

ftp://ftp.runequake.com/quake/demos/200 ... smok3y.zip

Here is someone botting:

ftp://ftp.runequake.com/quake/demos/200 ... _hutch.zip

Note how poorly this guy navigates the map (he's slow as a turtle and awkward as hell) , but yet when it comes time to aim he can instantly turn and fire and have a direct hit -- especially when he can't even make a direct hit with walking thru a door.

Perhaps the best example in that 2nd demo is when the player is hooking and another player is hooking, and despite the odd angles and movement both players are in relation to each other, he manages to perfectly shaft the other guy mid-air.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:36 pm 
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Baker,

The second demo of hutch is not a bot. In the demo, you actually scoff at Scoffer and Dyne for thinking such a thing.

One thing is for sure, it's the perfect example of an experienced player being called a bot.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:17 pm 
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My bad. :oops: I admit I just quickly looked for a demo in the archives that I thought was a cheater, briefly watched some of it and posted it. Too bad that Deftonic demo wasn't in the archives.

Now that I think about it about, did I record that demo to prove to Scoffer the guy wasn't cheating?

Anyways, Fuzznut ... it's not so easy.

One time I recorded a demo of someone I was convinced was cheating, sent Slot Zero a link to the demo via private message, watched the demo and realized the guy wasn't cheating and quickly deleted the outgoing private message as to not embarass myself.

The hardest thing about making a determination of whether or not someone is a bot is BIAS. If you watch a demo thinking someone is a bot, you will often find you don't pay attention to things that prove a player isn't.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:38 am 
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Hehe. :lol:

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 Post subject: I like bots
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:34 pm 
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I like bots, they make me a better player. I like campers too, taste like chicken.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:39 pm 
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Hiya Hog Bowel!!

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:44 pm 
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Hog, how did you change to Bowel from Jowl ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:34 am 
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Some guy got pissed off on Shmack because Bowels was beating up on him. And called him 'Good ol' Hog Bowels'. I thought that was hysterical so I started calling him that too. :lol:

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 Post subject: I partly disagree....
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:48 pm 
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toyo posted something earlier up there about the demo doesn't have to necessarily show the cheating, but sometimes you notice behavior. Not true. I've been playing quake for 10 years, if I hear a noise, I KNOW where it's coming from, I could time you from quite a distance, and blow you at a doorway. Noises make look as if people are cheating, but players like me use the noises to my advantage and have since day one, so this isn't even always true, the behavior thing.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:21 pm 
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Sound is a stimuli that influences behavior. An experienced, proficient Quake player should have no problem reconciling audible cues captured in the demo and a player who exploits them.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:52 am 
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what a whole thread of hog shit.

Most of the posters here are cheaters. Frenz, toyo, funkify....

what?? you want eveyone to say how good you are? pat you on the back for skillness?

not....

stop acting like people are fools....most of these people are skilled C,C++ programmers and can easily mod they're end.

I doubt if Surfergirl was making any sound when you auto aimed shot her...did she?? o, thats right, you know all the players sooooo well, you know where they stand....

bot!

And I've never, ever seen any of these cheaters ever offer a word of advice to a true newb, but many (really always) times I've seen them (toyo, frenzie, sole, cookie) don't even respond when directly asked a legit question. All they ever do is say "pwnd?" or "newb", to a 10 + year player....

All these ig-nant cheats want is our praise. To be first. Obviously they can't get it anywhere else.


But they're not getting it from me. I don't belive for one sec, (thats 1 sec for the ignant cheaters) that the play field is equal.


Demo's dont catch but the OBVIOUS BOTTER, and who wants to spend the game time riding some other player? Especially when you know someone like toyo, or cherri, or frenze is never gonnna get called for what they are.

These people are close friends with each other!!!!!!

btw, speaking of the Cherri crackhead, isn't it funny how she plays just as good as toyo? but no better, ever??? but at the same time she can't get a sinngle server command to work right? She tried to kick me one day, and kicked someone completely else!!!! But she has the skills to beat everyone playing....??? bullshit, she uses the same cheat as toyo, thats why.



Don't like the truth, then click that little X on the top right corner of your window!!!!!!!!!

Otherwise, turn of the toggles, use a public .EXE client, and play the game like the rest of us....

bots.....

King Scoffer


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:38 am 
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WOW. Scoffbot is particularly disgrunted tonight. :shock:

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:29 pm 
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Well, well. Another player who can't seem to spell my name right. It's not hard guys, really, just look to your left.

About cheating, I don't. Never have, never will. I've been playing Quake for many years now, that is why I am good. Besides that, I am not even that good. Every name that has been mentioned in this thread can kick my behind, and they do, on a regular basis. I DO NOT play as well as Toyo, as anyone who has seen us play together can attest to. If we were all using bots we would all be equally skilled, but that is obviously not the case.

About the sever thingies, my problem was my config, I had my number keys rearranged to fit my playing style which confused me if I tried to use the server options. That has been corrected though, so I shouldn't have that problem in the future. Besides the fact that I haven't had to use them often, and really would prefer not to. If you would keep your racial slurs to yourself I wouldn't have to stop playing my game just to kick you.

About all the skilled players being "friends" that is a load of BS. There are several people on that list that I have never even spoken to, not that I don't want to, I just haven't. So I wouldn't consider them my friends.

One last thing, I am always available to help newbies and answer their questions, I actually enjoy it. Most of the time I don't know the answers though. Seriously, all I do is double click Gamespy and play. That's about the extent of my Quake knowledge, but I will help when I can.

Cherrie


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 Post subject: Hah
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:59 am 
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I'd like to take this time to thank Scoffer for saying our names so much and giving us so much recognition. I love when you call me a bot, it's the best compliment there is, I just get tired of you talking. You remind me of... well, doesn't matter. You're comments are about as useful as a poop flavored lollipop. But again, thanks for the recognition, we all apreciate it, as you give us all a good laugh just by posting the things you do. Have a good night Mr. Scoffer! You're our biggest fan!

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